What Glory Was Not Revealed?
The Temple - Glory of the Past
The Glory Was Not Revealed continues our study on What Body Did the Apostles See? Part II asked a second question, i.e. When was Christ glorified?
Now of Christ’s glory, it is further stated that it had not yet been revealed. This therefore must include the post resurrection appearances for the apostles speak of this in their writings dated in the late 50’s and 60’s A.D. Peter, affirming that Christ’s glory would follow his sufferings and that God gave him glory, also writes in the same epistle that Christ’s glory had not yet been revealed, but was soon so to be.
“The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed.” (is about to be revealed, -mellouses apokaluptesthai). Why was this so? It is because the glory of Christ which would be revealed was the glory of the Father. “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of
His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.” Matthew 16:27)
What Glory Was Not Revealed?
John is even more emphatic in his denial that they had handled Jesus’ glorified body.” Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. (1 John 3:2)
Does not this verse clearly state that the apostles who handled, touched, heard, ate and spoke with Christ had not yet seen his glorified body? If Jesus’ post resurrection body was the incorruptible body of which ours is to be fashioned as in the futurist or other individual paradigms, then the apostles have lied to us. Why do we say this? It is because they not only saw that body but they touched and heard an incorruptible, glorified, immortal body but flatly denied it in their writings!
This shows they were not speaking of Jesus’ post resurrection body as the body which would be revealed. They were speaking of his body of glory associated with his coronation.
The Body of Glory Was Their Hope
In addition, John says it was their hope to be “like” Him, for we shall see Him as He is. “Shall see” expresses a future time and an object of hope stated in verse 3.
“And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.” Further, Paul tells us that ‘hope that is seen is not hope, for why does one hope for what he sees? (Rom. 8:24-25)
Understand that the apostles did not yet have their glorified bodies when they wrote. Also know that they disavowed any knowledge of what his glorified body was like. Whatever that likeness was, it was what they also desired to be. Since they were already like Christ in his human body for he was made in their likeness, they were not hoping to have a body like Christ’s post resurrection body as the object of their eschatological hope.
The Body of Glory Was Hidden
In Colossians 3:3, Paul writes that their “life” was hidden with Christ in God.” Since Christ’s glory was yet unrevealed, the glory of the church, i.e. the spiritual body of Christ, was likewise hidden. “For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.” (Col. 3:4)
Now it is acknowledged that the glory which the disciples would experience with Christ was yet future when Paul wrote Romans 8:17-21, and it is the glory of the resurrection per Rom. 8:23. Thus it is equal to the glorious body of 1 Cor. 15.
Since that glory had not been revealed and equals the glory of Christ’s resurrection, then it cannot be the likeness of his post resurrection body for the reasons above.
Christ Entered His Body of Glory After His Ascension To The Throne of God
Now, if Christ does not enter into his glory until his ascension and coronation, and if the body handled by the disciples cannot for reasons above be the “body of His glory,” i.e. the immortal, incorruptible body of the eschatological end time goal, then it follows that Christ’s glorious body into which ours conforms is not that of his biological pre or post resurrection body. Christ’s spiritual body, the church is the body of glory and the glory which was revealed. See our study on the Reexamination for more information on Christ’s body of glory.
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So the articles implication is …………. "christians bodies" are NOW in their glorified state!
Is that correct William?
In the sense that we reflect the glory of Christ reigning in victory yes. "Christ in you" is the now realized hope of glory. Col. 1:27. When he appeared, the church appeared with him "in glory", (Col. 3:4). Their "eschatological sufferings" were not worthy to be compared with the "glory" which was about to be revealed." (Rom. 8:19). The body of their humiliation, was transformed into the body of glory. (Phil. 3:21), much in the same sense that ancient Israel's "reproach of Egypt" was transformed into the "glory of Canaan." Thus, from the bondage of Egypt to the glory of Canaan versus the bondage of sin to the glory of salvation.
I think you have answered a different question ,,,, lifes as apposed to bodies
IE
So the articles implication is …………. "christians LIFES" are NOW in their glorified state!
as opposed to :
So the articles implication is …………. "christians BODIES" are NOW in their glorified state!
The distinctions of personal & corporate.
There was Jesus's personal (head to toe fleshly) body.
There is Jesus's personal (head to toe fleshly) body. (glorified)
There is Jesus's corporate (CHURCH ) body. (glorified) ONE no distinction between Jew & Gentile.
There is a christian's personal (head to toe fleshly) body.
There is a NON christian's personal (head to toe fleshly) body. (doesn't seem any different to a believers)
And an aruged christian's personal Glorified body as per Phillpians 3:21 & Romans 8:23
I think you have answered a different question ,,,, lifesas apposed to bodies
>So the articles implication is …………. "christians LIFES" are NOW in their glorified state!
as opposed to:
>So the articles implication is …………. "christians BODIES" are NOW in their glorified state!
The categories :
JESUS , BELIEVER
and
CHURCH, PERSONAL
is where I would like to see distictions made.
Jesus :
There was Jesus's personal (head to toe fleshly) body pre ressurection
There was Jesus's personal (head to toe fleshly) body post ressurection to Ascension
There was Jesus's personal (head to toe fleshly) body post Ascension to AD70
There is Jesus's personal (head to toe fleshly) body post AD70 …. perhaps?
There was Jesus's corporate (CHURCH) body pre AD70 …. perhaps not fullfilled totally?
There is Jesus's corporate (CHURCH) body post AD70 …. to eternity
Believer:
There was the Believers personal (head to toe fleshly) body pre ressurection
There was the Believers personal (head to toe fleshly) body post ressurection …. pre pentecost
There was the Believers personal (head to toe fleshly) body post pentecost to AD70
There is the Believers personal (head to toe fleshly) body post AD70 … eternity
Glorification:
BUT according Romans 8:23 , Philippians 3:21
Personal (not church) ,Believer, Glorification … is suggested.
Understanding the implications of Romans 8:23 , Philippians 3:21 like themes is what is at stake !!!!!!! (for me)
Roger, not sure if I'm following you on these personal body references. Jesus' post resurrection "personal body" was the same as his "pre-resurrection" personal body. Remember, he asked them to touch him, feel the prints in his hands and in his side. He also said, touch me and see for a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see me have. So nothing mystical about the body raised. Christ was put to death "in the flesh" but raised, "in the Spirit"(1 Peter 3:18) but neither canceled out the pre/post personal bodily state.
I take all your points.
But for non-preterists … that which is suggested in the last verses in Philippians chapter 3. ….. "will TRANSFORM our lowly [personal/fleshly] bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" is contentious!
So the key word I suppose is "TRANSFORM".
And I have inserted "personal/fleshly"
Of course I could have inserted "corporate" instead!
That is my point. That "lowly body" ..
What is THE "lowly body" ?
Many would suggest a believers body doesn't get much past 70 years.
And a non believer also ……………………..doesn't get much past 70 years.
Or putting it differently ………..there is no stark distinction between the two!
or again ….. what is the TRANSFORMATIONAL difference
A more accurate translation of the phrase is "the body of the humiliation of us." That helps one to understand the "corporate" body under discussion and follows the context. The "low estate" of the church or body of Christ during the Pre-Parousia reign of Christ is characterized by their "life in the Spirit" and the persecutions and great tribulation they suffer before arriving at the end goal of the New Heavens and Earth wherein the glory of God is manifested. This is the essence of Colossians 3:4: "For you died, and your life is hiddenwith Christ in God. But when Christ who is our life shall appear, then you shall appear with Christ in glory." Now it has to be obvious that the Colossians are not biologically dead. Yet, Paul said they died. (To find the manner of their death, and what they died to, see Col. 2:11-12, and verse 20). They died to sin and to the law (Torah) called the "basic principles" or "elements of the world" from "stoichea". See on Gal. 4:3-5. Having died to the law, they had no visible temple, priesthood, city, etc as evidence of their glory and confirmation of their being sons of God, but only suffering and persecution, i.e. a reproach that appeared to fall short of fulfillment. This is the same state that Israel was in during their wilderness journey from Egypt to Canaan and they often complained and murmured while in that transition that they might fall short of their "goal of glory" in Canaan and be the laughing stock of the nations around them, (Num. 11:1f; 16:1ff). (See Paul's similar admontion to the church Phil. 3:14). Yet, when they entered the promised land, God said on that day, the "reproach of Egypt" i.e. their "humiliation" of being a "people without a homeland" had ended. In like manner, the life and glory of these saints were "hidden" in Christ who was their hope, Col. 1:27). "But when Christ appeared, they would appear with him in glory. The temple of the Jews would be destroyed, their priesthood gone, their sacrifices ended, the genealogies obliterated and their city in ruins. This confirmed God's favor upon Christians and manifested the glory of the new corporate spiritual body of Christ. That they were being transformed through the "eschatological Spirit" is evident from 2 Cor. 3:18. Now that Christ has appeared, His body, the church is no longer a body of humiliation but a body reflecting His glorious reign and victory over all His enemies. If you start in verse 1 of Philippians, you would see that Paul is contrasting life under the Old Jewish aeon. He counted all of that loss in order to gain Christ and to be "found" in Him (a technical term for the Parousia, as in 2 Pet. 3:14). Thus he was being "conformed to Christ's death in order that he might attain to the "exanastasin" i.e. the "out resurrection" from the dead. There are two expressions regarding resurrection expressed by the word "nekron" in Scripture which is rendered "of the dead" and "ek nekron" rendered "out of the dead." Of the 49 times the latter is used, 34 refer to Christ's resurrection, whom we know was raised "out of the dead." However, the phrase is different in Philippians 3:11. It is the resurrection "out from among the dead." Paul was not biologically dead, yet he was being conformed to Christ's death in order that he might attain to the resurrection "out from among the dead." He was dying to the old covenant aeon and rising to the new covenant aeon, which he expresses in 2 Cor. 3:7-11 as transforming from glory of the Old Covenant) to glory (of the new covenant). Again, the transition was the time of the "body of the humiliation of us" whereas the consummated change equals to the "body of the glory of us" (to match the phrase) which was fashioned after the glory of the triumphant Christ. We are now members of Christ's transformed body of glory. It has nothing to do with biology, but everything to do with soteriology.
the article makes sense if:
BODY = mind, spirit and soul
And not
BODY = arms, legs, torso & head.
So BODY really means BEING
and
BODY doesn't mean BLOOD & BONE
I wonder how many would agree!
The article posits Pauls experience (pre Jesus's coronation) to be inferior to Pauls (post Jesus's coronation) experience.
Now Paul wasn't to have a earthly biologicaly living " post experience" as he died pre AD70.
But those comments apply no doubt to believers today.
So the GLORY is for post AD70 believers.
Have now heard the Theological position!
Now the BIG QUESTION is…
What is now the Practical position?
Seems to me at a practical level believers had MORE glory PRE AD70 than NOW (POST AD 70).
How could that be when the believers then were waiting for the manifestation of the glory of God? "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Rom. 8:18)